Loving Movement After ED with Naomi Gottlieb-Miller

Episode Description:

This week I'm joined by movement teacher and mama Naomi Gottlieb-Miller. Naomi shares how her history with an eating disorder impacted her relationship to movement, and teaching movement.

Mentioned:

Virginia Sole-Smith
Molly Caro May

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https://conscioushealthymama.com/

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Episode Transcript:

Intro Captions

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Hi! Welcome back to Rebel Movement podcast. My name is Billie, my pronouns are they/them or she/her, and I'm excited that you're here. We're doing another interview today. Totally changing up the topics. If you've been around the last couple weeks, you know we've done a couple of interviews and they've been kind of on a similar subject so far anyway, the last two. This one is a totally different topic and I'm just as excited to talk about it. So today we have– well, I'll let her introduce herself. We have a wonderful guest Naomi and she's gonna talk to us a little bit about her journey healing from eating disorders and then going into teaching movement and how her healing process has affected her own approach to movement. And I just think it's so important to talk about this kind of thing. I think if you're here, chances are you have your own story that– is to do with movement and food and body image stuff, and I like to share as many of these kinds of stories as possible because I think they help to normalize some of the stuff we go through, not that it's okay, you know, not that I think we should have to all go through this kind of thing, but maybe we'll feel a little bit less alone when it comes to these experiences. So I hope you love this interview just as much as me and I will catch you at the end of the episode.

Interview Captions

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Hey, thank you so much for joining. I'm really excited for our conversation today. Do you mind just jumping right into like your name, pronouns, and then just a little bit about you.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really, really happy to be here and to chat with you. I'm Naomi, Gottlieb-Miller. My pronouns are she/her. And I always feel funny saying the first thing that– I'm a mom like there's something about That is my primary identity that still feels lik you know, like why is that my primary identity? But it very much is. So I am a mom. I have three kids. I teach yoga and movement. I try to clarify that what I offer now is very removed I think from what yoga should be classified as, you know what what yoga should be called and so my lineage comes from yoga but I am influenced at this point by a wide range of movement modalities and include as much of that in my teaching as I can mostly, you know, to give my students just access to lots of different ways to move, to feel better in their bodies. I've been teaching yoga and movement for 20 years now, which is wild to think. And, I am– And like this is another weird thing, I guess, to say that I am an Air Force spouse. And the only reason I add that in is that that has radically changed our lives in that my husband joined the military late in life. And so we didn't really start moving around until after our second child was born,  and he turns 8 in just a few days. So you know, it's– That also is– sort of influenced very much who I am in the past eight years or so because that was never an identity that I thought I would claim. But here we are and– What else? I am– the way that I like to describe myself is that I'm a mover, and a maker, and a mom. So I think that kind of sums it up. Pretty well.

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No, that's a good summary. Thank you. Sounds like a– like quite a few things transition in there too, right?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah, I can't imagine. It would be such a big thing to get used to moving more often with– Like with kids, cause it's bigger– It's a bigger deal if you have kids because you have– you need to– not only do you have like the kids to move but you also have to help them with the moving process and like– that coming to terms with all like there's so much to it.

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Yeah, it's so hard, especially as they get older because you know they get of course, so much more attached to their friends, to where they've lived, you know, to their school, to all of those things. And my oldest is about to start middle school, and you know, there's already so much intensity with you know, being a kid starting middle school, but being a kid starting middle school as the new kid in a place. And not really knowing anyone, and leaving all of your friends behind and you know having some anxiety just about being 11 in general you know, and about the world and not having the security net of friends, you know, I think as adults– I mean I can speak for myself in that, I have been able to make friends on and offline with a little bit more ease as I get older. And my daughter, my oldest, is incredibly extroverted so, you know, she actually makes friends really well, but you know she also likes her little group of– you know so it's just you know it's really tough, like I love the adventure of it, and you know the kids don't choose it, like they don't choose to pick up and move every three years so you know this is– actually in April, just when we're recording it's the month of the military child and it's just a reminder that you know, oftentimes you'll say things like, thank you for your service to the service member but you never hear somebody saying to children, thank you so much for your service. Thank you for moving, and for upending yourself and having to make friends every–

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Yeah, your support.

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Yeah like you know, and so I think that's something that is worth just acknowledging too that it's– so hard for the kids.

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Hard for the kids. Yeah. Yeah, we've just moved, I have two who are– one is the same age as your oldest, although we don't call it middle school in Canada, so I'm assuming that's like, what grade is middle school? 6, 7, 8? 

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Sixth grade. Yeah.

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Okay. That's what I thought it was. And then one who’s older, but– so I totally, totally get everything you're saying. And I'm just gonna like derail myself because I feel like we– I can keep going with that conversation, which is interesting, but I think the stuff we had planned is even– well, just as interesting at least. That means I don't really have a very fancy segue. We talked a little bit before, we recorded, I mean– and in emails and stuff and you told me a little bit about having a history of eating disorder and as you've just told us you’re a movement teacher. Do you mind– just as much as is comfy– talking a little bit about like your experience with your eating disorder or disordered eating?

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Yeah, absolutely. So I started becoming very aware of my body and how my body looked when I was I think 8– like I was really young. And I was in dance classes and I– You know, was a normal 8 year-old kid with a– I mean, and I use the word normal very loosely because obviously normal is kind of a relative term– But you know, I was just a kid. I was a kid in an 8 year-old body, you know, and I was in dance classes with– and I had friends whose thighs didn't touch, for example, and didn't have bellies that you know, stuck out. And my dance teacher made a really big deal about the girls whose thighs didn't touch and the girls whose bellies and butts didn't stick out. And while, you know, in fairness, I wasn't on the worst of the receiving end. Like there was a girl who was a little bit larger-bodied than I am. I'm not a large-bodied person, really, and I wasn't then. But she would go by and smack this other girl's butt to make her squeeze it in and like smack her belly.

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Oh, that's awful.

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Yeah, I mean, and these are things not even about my own body that I remember, but I remember feeling like, oh, I don't, want to have that happen to me.

So, you know, I remember starting– Being very aware of what I ate around that time like 8, 9 years old and you know, it's certainly accelerated when I was in middle school, and you know, my body was changing. It's getting boobs, you know, like hormones, all the stuff.

And just nothing felt normal– again, there's that word– Nothing felt normal. Nothing felt like the way that I wanted to feel. I was getting attention from people that I didn't want to get. And, you know, I think probably what happened in my child mind was, well, the only way to handle all of this is to make myself smaller. Right? So, you know, I can say this with the adult language now of making myself smaller so that I could, you know, potentially be less visible, but also make myself smaller because that's what was preferred, you know, like culturally speaking, you know, I  was born in 1981. I grew up with, you know, the heroin chic models of the nineties, you know, that was what we looked at on the covers of all the magazines and you know, I like to say that I'm very much a rebellious person. I don't like playing by the rules. I don't like boxes. I don't like any of that. But this was something I couldn't really avoid, culturally speaking and so. You know, I started restricting the food that I ate probably when I was in middle school, definitely in high school. I had become a vegetarian when I was in sixth grade because all the cool kids were doing it, and then it became more of an ethical choice and all of that when I got older, but it also was a very convenient way to stop eating eventually dairy, to stop eating eggs, to stop you know all of the other stuff. And again, you know, not to like slam plant-based or vegan anything. I still am. I just have a very different approach to it than I did then. But again, it was an excuse for me to say, I'm not eating these things now. I'm not eating these things now. And it intensified when I got to college. And when I was in college, I lost such a significant amount of weight that I was no longer getting my period. And I, you know. I just– I mean, what really happened is I thought that I was pregnant, you know, and I was panicked.

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Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, anxiety-inducing.

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Yeah, and I thought that I was pregnant and, you know, my mom in all of her infinite kindness– And you know, like I think in just a really solid motherhood moment did not condemn me for thinking that I was pregnant, did nothing like that– just took me, you know, like I left school, I went back and I got a blood test, you know, I went with my mom to the gynaecologist, all of that and was not pregnant, I was just, you know not eating enough. And while it still didn't get addressed in that immediate moment, I went on hormonal birth control and that helped even out my cycle so at least I was getting a period so it kind of masked the issue for a little bit longer, honestly what actually happened a little bit after that was that I found yoga. I went to my first yoga class because I was incredibly stressed out in college. There was a lot going on. I lived in New York. Obviously I was not taking good care of myself and so I went to a yoga class and it was in– I mean, it was a very bizarre experience. I feel like it's worth describing the scene, which is that it was in like, a big one-room open space and the guy who was teaching these classes would put up these– he had rooms for rent in the yoga studio. And he had these plywood walls that he'd erected for these teeny tiny little rooms–

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Oh dear.

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Where people could put, yeah, they could put a cot and you know, dresser like, and a microwave or fridge or something, but it was so tiny. And they would rent out the space and his only rule was that you could not be there during yoga classes unless you were taking the yoga class. And that if they had a phone, the phone had to be off the hook during class. I mean, this was like the year 20000, you know. So anyway, I remember going to one of these classes and I was lying on the floor– Maybe doing cobra maybe something like that– and I could feel my heart pounding. And it was pounding hard. In a yoga class, like in a Hatha yoga class where we were not flowing, we were not jumping, we weren’t doing anything, you know, high-intensity. And I thought to myself in that moment, I am not taking good care of my body. Like I am doing serious harm. Like my heart shouldn't be beating this fast right now, something's wrong.

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Yeah.

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And again, I still found myself, you know, doing things more harmful to my body, over-exercising, under-eating, all of that stuff. But the awareness was there, and I think that it's– I think it's important to mention that because I think when it comes to recovery, the expectation is you have this lightbulb moment, and everything changes and you heal yourself. And that's just not how recovery works. Particularly with eating disorders, you know eating disorders and disordered eating in general not only are they socially acceptable, not only are they applauded, by so many people you know, in the entertainment industry on the cover of magazines, you know, like in, you know, with nutritionists, even, I mean, just fitness professionals, the whole spectrum, you know, these behaviours are socially acceptable and so it's, I think an incredibly difficult thing to shake. Because you're constantly bombarded with the opposite messaging, right? The messaging of, no, you're supposed to be small. You're supposed to be dieting. You're supposed to be restricting. Good for you for doing whatever terrible thing you've done to your body, you know what I mean? And so, the awareness was there, but it still took me a really long time to actually realize that I didn't wanna die. That I didn't wanna slowly kill myself through starvation. And you know, this kind of feeds in very much to where I am now– But I think the first real moment of me recognizing that was being pregnant. And saying, well, now that I've decided to keep this pregnancy, I really want to make sure that we both get through this. You know, now that– I want to do everything I can, I'm not gonna restrict and not going to over-exercise, I'm not going to do the things that are harmful for my body because if they're harmful for me, they are absolutely harmful for you know, whatever is trying to grow inside of me, like you can't grow if you're restricting right?

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Yeah, for sure.

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So, you know, I mean, that's the– and there were still, after that there were still slide backwards– you know, there were still moments, but you know, I can say now that, you know, eleven years into motherhood, those backward slides are so much fewer and further– like they just don't happen almost at all anymore. And when they do, I'm so aware of what's happening that it's like, okay, what's going– Like I have to check in with myself. What's going on right now? What am I worried about? Like what's really going on? You know, so.

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Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, those backward slides are definitely a normal part of–I wish they weren't, but a normal part of recovery that it’s– Like I deal with and a lot of people I know deal with, what clients I know deal with. Yeah, it does definitely get easier. You kind of develop like the tools to like be able to ride the wave a little bit better and recognize that like this isn’t like your opinion, it’s something that you were taught from our culture really early on, and it just,  it is really frustrating sometimes, especially when it's a big wave, when you have that feeling of like, oh what is all this work for even if I spent all this time working on my recovery and then it just comes up but– Yeah, good, I’m glad that it’s gotten less often and maybe smaller? I guess it kind of depends on the–

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Definitely smaller, definitely smaller. I mean, it shows up for example in how I move, you know, so as a runner, it used to be– even after, you know, having children it used to be I would say to myself, I can push a little bit harder.

I'm gonna run a little bit more. And now I've gotten to a point where unless I'm actually training for something, which I'm not right now– But unless I'm actually training for something, I don't time my runs. I don't really measure distance. I let myself stop if I need to stop, which is the hardest for me. Like absolutely the hardest. But I try to give myself– or if I really don't feel like running I'll say to myself, hey, it's okay. Like, I know that today was a planned run day. We're not going to do it. Don't feel like it. You know, and just really trying to honour that. And then if I then say, oh, well, because it was run day I was going to have more protein or whatever, I try to again hear those voices and say, okay, you can still eat what you were going– you can still eat normally, just because it's not as high-intensity does not mean you eat less like it is just like an ongoing loop in my brain where I have to tell myself– just that as an example– Just because it's not a high-intensity day does not mean that I eat less. If I'm not hungry, I eat less. That's a different thing, right? 

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That's a different thing. Yeah.

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But it's just that conversation that I have to have with myself on days like that where, am I really listening to my body or am I trying to do something to create a particular effect? Right? Or to adhere to certain rules or whatever that is. And that's when I know it's unhealthy territory.

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For sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you so much for sharing your story, I know that stuff– I know you've said that you're talking– like you are pretty open with it, but I just wanted to make sure I let you know that I appreciate you sharing because it's difficult, but I think it's really important because it's something that so many of us have experienced in some way or another, and I think it can be really helpful to just bring more and more awareness to like different versions of the same story that we've all been told when we were younger. Because of the culture that we live in, because of diet culture, that we were told to be smaller, and being smaller meant either you have more value or meant you weren't seen, which maybe was a good thing or like for one reason or another, most of us have had– especially those who are AFAB and grew up in women-presenting bodies or girl-presenting bodies, something we all went through, and I think it can just be so empowering to just hear someone else's story, I feel like even if you've heard quite a few I can just hear– like hearing someone else’s almost like more fuel for the anti-diet fire of like pushing everything else out of your head because that makes sense.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that– I mean, there are certain stories that I will keep for myself because they're not only mine, you know that I'll ask permission like if I'm dealing with something with my husband, for example, or if there's, you know, some of the relationship– Those things I might not share, but in other ways, if it's my story, if it's about my body, about my lived experience, if it's about motherhood and I'm not putting my kid on the spot in a really negative light or I try not to, you know– but I really feel that not everybody feels comfortable talking about these things, but I do. And if I can, through sharing my story, make people feel less alone or less weird or whatever, then it– It's not so much that then it has value, I think it has value on its own, but then it is useful, you know, in making the world bigger– Or actually, I guess I should say like, making our experiences more connected, I think is more what it is.

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Yeah. I think so too. And I think it can be. It can be– Saying it out loud, whether it's to, you know, in the more public way or to somebody else or whatever, I think it also takes some of the power away that some of these thoughts and beliefs have. I know you’ve talked about it a little bit, we kind of alluded to some of it when you talked about running, how did your eating disorder, disordered eating, affect your relationship with movement? Like did movement become a tool to lose weight for you? 

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Oh, 100%. But also, you know, that's I think what we're taught about movement, you know, we're taught that the goal of movement is to either– is to make your body look a certain way–

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Hi, I'm gonna interrupt for a second, and part of the reason is because of an email I got from Naomi after we did the interview also because of myself and just how this next part kind of sit and came out. Naomi and I both agreed this maybe didn't come out the right way. Naomi did clear up with me after the fact that what they intended to say and what came out maybe wasn't very clear. So I just wanted to do a little– I don't know, interruption and just say that any body can do any movement, it's not one particular body can do one particular type of movement, or that you can't do movement if you don't like a traditional-looking runner's body. What she meant is that if, for example, you're a long-distance runner versus a short-distance runner, you might train your muscles in slightly different ways, or if you're a gymnast you might train in certain ways. And I think what Naomi intended was that sometimes, say for example, swimmers or gymnasts can tend to have a particular look, but what she didn't mean to imply was that that's the type of body that can do that movement. In her email– Actually, you know what? Maybe I'll just read her email: “I also wanted to clarify a comment I made that has been bugging me. I said something about how a certain sport can shape bodies to look a particular way. For example, swimmers often have a particular look because of their training, gymnasts too. Long-distance runners or short-distance runners train their muscle groups in different ways, so their bodies can look a little bit different. What I didn't mean to apply is that there is a certain type of body that lends itself to these activities, or that people who don't have these more traditionally-shaped bodies according to their sport aren't as legitimate somehow. I don't know if it was clear, I actually think it's really harmful to say that only certain bodies can do certain activities, so it's certainly not what I meant to imply.” So there you go. Hopefully that's clear. I wanted to make sure I share it and put it in here as well because I agree, it can be a harmful message that certain bodies can be only do certain movements and it is a message that I am actively promoting the opposite of, in my work and glad to share Naomi’s correction after the back so I'll let you get back to the interview.

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Okay, like I think that generally we can say that– right so a lot of times for example we'll say, oh a gymnast body for example looks like this, it has a particular– like a swimmer's body looks like this, you know, you can say that certain types of movement, for example, can shape bodies in particular ways. Within diet culture, we take that to extremes and say, well, if I do sit ups, that's going to shape my abs. Well, that's silly. Not accurate, actually. You have to do considerably more than that if you really want to do that, and why is that the goal? You know, I think that we really have to investigate why those things are the goals. And to answer your question, you know, when I was a kid and I was dancing, you know, certainly I started dancing because I loved it. It was fun, it still is, you know, like I love dancing! And I think the saddest thing is that I stopped dancing. Because of all– I mean, I stopped dancing in the way that I was with regular classes. And then later felt intimidated to start again because I felt like, I don't want my body to be picked apart, “I don't have the body for it.” You know, like whatever that means, using heavy air quotes there, you know. And so, you know, it actually took one part of movement away from me, because I felt like I couldn't do it anymore. Safely. But then I found other things that I could do, you know, outside– I found running, which, you know, I started as a way to move my body, but yeah, for sure as a way to shape my body in a particular way. You know, it's a sport that I don't get anybody else's feedback from. The only feedback I would get was from me and again that can be positive and negative but– And for a long time I used it in a very negative way, and I would say that my relationship with running is considerably healthier than it was when I was in high school, when I was in college, when I was, you know, even postpartum the first two times, right? Like running was a way to– you know, and I enjoyed it too. I mean, that's the thing, is that what's really tricky for me is that I love moving, I always have. So it's always been intertwined. Like it's always been, I love this and fun side benefit, you know. But when that fun side benefit is loaded with a side of diet culture, it hard to untangle.

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Yes.

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I certainly used, I used yoga in that way too for quite a long time. Strength training has always been a little bit different for me. Strength training has always been, I want to get stronger.

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Nice. I like that.

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Yeah, and– but even with that there's always been a– because I have a tendency to go hard, do that, you know like push, push, push, I've had to learn how to pull back to– If I feel myself going too hard to a point where I'm getting injured, or like I'm going up in weight too fast or I'm doing something not as skilfully or whatever it is, cause strength training in and of itself is not inherently dangerous, like it's actually incredibly safe. But I have done it unsafely. You know, of course.

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Yeah, like a pushing kind of intensity– I can't think of the word that I'm trying to find–

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No, no, I'm with you. I know what you're talking about–

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Like yeah, in an extreme sense I guess, is one way of putting it.

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Absolutely. Yeah. So–

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Yeah, so how did you– oh sorry, you go ahead, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. 

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No, no, go ahead. You, you can ask. It probably goes–

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I feel like this is what you're saying. But how did you start to untangle the like weight loss or like the diet culture part of it from all the other things? Like I'm sure it was helpful that you had the– you love some of the movements, and that you were like aware of some of the other things that you liked about movement, how did you get the rest of it or start to get the rest of it out?

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I think that was key. Like just loving movement is helpful. You know, there are a lot of people who will say, oh, I hate moving, but I know it's good for me. And I'm not gonna argue with that because that's actually helpful for some people. So I'm not gonna yuck on that at all. But for me, that can't work. Because if it becomes something that I don't enjoy and I'm forcing myself to do it, then it will immediately go into unhealthy territory, right, so I think that there's always going to be nuance when it comes to that, right? And there always has to be, because I think different approaches are gonna work for different people. There's an anti-diet fat liberation journalist who I follow, her name is Virginia Sole-Smith and she does not like moving. She is not a mover, it's not her first nature at all. But she talks in one of her podcasts about her– I think she calls them her grumpy little walks.

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So cute. I think I've seen this too– I think so, keep going through. 

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Yeah, and she says that she got it from somebody else too, somebody actually within her community, so you know it's like attributing it to– you know to like various sources, but you know, she does know that actually walking makes her feel good, and so she's like, I'm doing my grumpy little walk, putting on my stupid jacket, lacing up my stupid sneakers, and being mad about it and then getting out and actually saying, okay, this was not terrible, you know and–

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Yeah, I feel that now.

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Right, and so I feel like for some people– that's why I always wanna say, like I also used to be much more– I'm trying to think of the word that I want to use– much more rigid, I guess, in how I approach this. And so a lot of it also has just been listening to people in larger bodies. A lot of it has been listening to people who don't look like me. You know, listening to people who are, you know in marginalized bodies, generally, you know people of colour, trans people, listening to people whose experiences are completely different than mine. Right? And, you know, acknowledging that our experiences are different and saying, okay, I'm going to hear this and it might not land in my body, but I can hear it and understand that that’s what worked for you. You know, also just listening to a lot of people who are anti-diet fitness professionals. You know, people who are not pushing, you know, go hard all the time– just listening to people who are saying there are a lot of different ways to move your body. I also think that it helps that I'm a person again– like I said at the beginning, like I tend to push back against convention. I tend to push back against social accepted norms. So that also helps me personally. But I think that what I really had to do was fall in love with movement again. And fall in love with it purely because moving makes me feel good. You know, because I love running. Lots of people hate it, I'm not going to advocate running for everybody. People hate running. I love it most of the time, you know. It's like– so I also think that movement is not a one-size fits all sort of a thing.

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I think that you know, we really have to look so much more broadly at what movement is, right? We have to look at like–

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I think so too.

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You know, some people really love swimming. Some people really love like, playing like dodgeball as adults. Do you know what I mean? Like they love joining adult sport teams, adult soccer teams, you know what I mean? Like there are so many ways. Right? And if we look at things just through this narrow lens of what movement can do instead of like really feeling into, what feels good? You know, or even, what can I tolerate? Okay, and this is a little bit of a different concept and I'm really actually only putting it together now, but it comes from work that I've done with a writing coach, somebody– and she also does somatic work, she’s one of my coaches, and her name is Molly Caro May, and she talks about like a zone of tolerance. Right. She talks about it more in terms of like feeling, like when you're feeling things like, what's your zone of tolerance like. So if you are feeling something, what can you tolerate within that feeling and then what's just outside of that tolerance, you know, and seeing what's just outside of that, and then being in that zone of tolerance and saying, can you widen it just a tiny bit? Right? And then sort of getting acquainted with that zone of tolerance, and then maybe widening it just a little bit so that you're just constantly playing at those edges. And I think that that actually works in movement too. You know, it's like going back to Virginia Sole-Smith's grumpy little walks. You know, like you can have this grumpy little walks and then realize, oh, maybe– maybe I'm only grumpy about it in the winter actually, or in the summer maybe. You know what I mean? Like, I really don't like it at these times, but these times are not so bad. So maybe they're not grumpy little– you know, I mean, I can't speak for her, but it's just, it's more about like, can you just broaden, just a tiny, tiny bit that zone of tolerance? And breathe into it. Right? And then maybe discover, oh, if I kind of like walking in this way, maybe I will also like this, maybe I can try that too. And I think that instead of restricting, it just, it expands things for us a little bit, which is powerful, actually.

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For sure. Yeah, for sure. I think it's important what you said about it, how it's different for– like it’s different for everybody, I think it's so important. Cause I think– I thought about this a little bit, actually probably a lot more than a little bit, but how– There's so many ways, if you're looking in diet culture, specifically diet culture view, they– There's so many different places where you hear, this is the way, the like only way to do this, this is the only– you know and you can hear me, if you can hear like seventeen different people say this exact– like, different things with the exact same you know, beginning like, this is the only way to do this, and I think to me, I think that leaving diet culture and being, like rebelling against diet culture also kind of means rebelling against the idea that like one thing is good for everybody in most senses. I'm not gonna say all because I have no idea, but in most senses that's actually not the case and like you said, like you love movement and that's your thing, but like Virginia Sole-Smith likes the grumpy little walks, I have a little bit of both, like some movement I really like, some good movement I don't like, but I know that it's good for my mental health and I feel better after, so I do it, and I'm grumpy while I started doing it, but when I'm done, I feel better. But you know, it's just a different person. You kind of have to like–  At least in my experience, and with my clients you're gonna have to like, explore a little bit, try a little bit of both, and then along the way, sort of sort of start to like, figure out how your approach is– what your approach is like, what's different about it? And I think, yeah, I love the way you just described that because I feel like it just is such a good example of that, like you love movement and it's– was sort of like the thing that kept going with it and helped you to fall in love with it, or continue to fall in love with it in maybe even a deeper way. So how does your history– all that, and I know that you're a mom, how does– how do those affect how you teach and how you practice now?

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Yeah, so I think that the biggest shift for me in both how I practice and how I teach, is that I used to– I mean I came from a school of thought, and I think a lot of us who have been practicing yoga specifically for a long time, came from a school of thought that yoga classes should be 60 minutes or 90 minutes long, and that your home practice should actually look like that too. That your practice at home should be dedicated, and strong, and you're building towards hard poses, and you know, this emphasis– and also, you know, included in that 30 minute long meditations and, you know, just the expectation of having unlimited time. For yoga, and meditation, and that sort of thing. And certainly when I was in teacher training, so we're talking 20 years ago, right? So, 20 years ago when I was, you know, I was 24 when I was in teacher training, 23 and then 24, but I had lots of time. I was 24, you know, I was– when I started my teacher training, I had moved back from New York City to live with my parents again. And they live right outside of DC in Maryland, and it was a way to save money before, you know, finding my own apartment and you know, save money while I just spent a lot of money on a teacher training and all of that. So I had lots of time to dedicate to a home practice. Like what else was I doing? You know, so I would do like 90 minutes practices at home and bust out all the poses and whatever. And then, you know, flash forward to becoming a mom. And also still teaching yoga like– and teaching movement and working at various studios in the DC area, and– so first of all, my kid did not sleep. The only time that she slept was when she was physically on my body. Okay, so I couldn't– and this was during the day and I was home by myself. My husband had to go– We actually weren't even married at the time. But he is now, so whatever. He had to go back to work seven days after I gave birth.

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Wow.

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And I was at home. With an infant who wasn't latching, so she wasn't nursing very well. She was tiny because she was born early. I was stressed because I couldn't figure out what I'd like– I had nothing, right? And so when I finally tried to get back to movement postpartum that first time around, not only did I have no idea what I was doing in my body because everything was foreign, but I didn't know how to fit it in. Cause I was immediately thinking, I've got to go back to 60 minute practices, I've got to, you know, do this. And it took me actually quite a long time to realize that I didn't need to do that. Like, I could do a 15 minute practice, and that would be good. I could do cat cow for 10 minutes really if I wanted to, and that would be fine. And once I realized that, once I realized like, oh, I don't have to do even 30 minutes, I can just move my body for the amount of time that I have, and do what feels good. That– it was like unlocking a new level of life, you know? And when I started my online studio– So back in 2018 right after my husband joined the military– he joined the military in 2016, and then we started moving in 2017 and I kind of started my online studio a year after that, once I kind of realized what I wanted to do. I realized that I didn't want to teach hour-long classes at home, because I wasn't doing hour-long classes at home. So I started offering 30 minute classes online, and I recorded 15 minute classes monthly for my students. And that worked brilliantly. And they loved it. And my classes are geared typically for moms, people who identify as moms, or parents who stay at home. Typically. Although there are lots of women who are in my studio who are grandmothers, or who never had children, or you know just, are there because they like the quick classes, and also because they've recognized that short classes don't diminish the movement.

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Exactly. That's important.

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I think there's this prevailing idea that if you are doing a shorter class it is somehow less than, or not as good, or you know, that you are leaving important things out. And the truth of the matter is, is that in all of my classes online, we start– at least all of the yoga-ish classes,we start with a very brief centering, and we end with a brief Savasana. Right? So in the 30 minute classes, there's a 3 min Savasana at the end, right? It’s 10% of the class. Which is actually no different than what I would do in a 60 minute class. It’s 10% of the class. Right? In a 90 minute class, 9 minutes. Like, so it's kinda, you know, so I look at it as like, no, I still give them rest, it's just relative to what they're doing. You know, and–

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Yeah. I think that's a big, that's a– sorry. That's an important thing that I think just– I just wanna pause for a second on that, and just reiterate that what– the sort of, this thing you're saying, because if something that I say– I'm gonna have to say with every single person that I work with that's leaving diet culture, but most in some way or another have this come up where it's like, oh, it doesn't have to be 60 minutes, like I could just do cat cow, or it doesn't have to be really intense, it can just be you know, something chill. I do feel like it's so important. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, I just wanna like underline that part, because I think that's a message that if you're gonna get anything from any of this, that’s one of the top three from this episode. It does not have to be very long - give me one post. Doesn't have to be intense. It can be, too. It still counts. There's no prerequisites. There's no like, you know, list of things that you have to meet and in order for it to be, in quotes, a legitimate practice, those doesn't exist. It's just something that we've been told from diet culture and you can just throw it right out the window.

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Yes, exactly and that's– no and I'm totally fine, because that is one of the most important things that I try to communicate in my teaching, and I, all of my– I mean my classes in my online studio range from 5 minutes, 8 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes, and 30 minutes.

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Nice.

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I do a once monthly, 60 minute class, like just because. But, you know, like it's not, it's– I love doing it, and it's great because I give people more Savasana, and people show up for it and it's fine, but there are people who show up to a live 15 minute class and say, thank you so much for giving me 15 minutes today. I build all my programs around this premise too. I have a free program called Power of One that is just one movement every day, for 30 days, just one movement. Just do that. Because when we think about movement, I think that one of the most intimidating things is that people think they have to jump into the deep end.

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Yeah, for sure.

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You know, like you have to jump in at the hardest thing, and even going to a beginner's level class for somebody who has not moved before, or who is coming back to movement after an injury, or after giving birth, or you know after just being away for whatever reason, doesn't matter what the reason is, right? It can be non-physical. They can be away from it because of grief and they just have not wanted to leave their house.

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Exactly. Yeah.

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Or move their bodies, you know, it doesn't matter what the reason is, but it can feel so intimidating to go to a class that's 60 minutes long when you haven't really been doing much movement in the first place. So, you know, it's like, Power of One is just one movement every day. That's it. Daily Five is a 5 minute practice that you can do every day, you know, I want movement to be accessible, easy for people to do, not exclusive and hard to access, right? I don’t want movement to feel like something that only these people get to do, I want movement to be something that everybody has access to and that you can tailor to your own needs. If you have time to do 60 minutes like, high-five to you! If you have time to swing your leg back and forth before you pick up your kid from school, high five to– you know, I mean, it's like, it doesn't matter to me what it is and I don't think that putting a hierarchy in the movement world is particularly helpful for anyone.

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Yeah, I totally agree. I think that, the only class that I teach on a regular basis that's an hour is a restorative class where we don't ever really stand up, just like do slow stretches. I have like, some more 45 minute classes on my website, but I have like 5 minute things, like 20 minute classes in my schedule too, where it's just like, those classes that are shorter are– like one of them is a mobility class, I don't know if– I feel like you found this too just based on what you're saying, but, I’m just sharing with you because I feel like it puts down this point even like– I don't even know what I'm trying to say. I’ll just say the thing without explaining why  I'm saying it. But the 20 minute mobility class or 20 minute workout, whichever one that folks are taking, they often are, surprised by first of all the ability that you can like– Just because I'm saying you can do something doesn’t mean that you actually have to do it, like you can just ignore me the whole time and it's fine, but also for folks who are wanting it to be challenging that they can either do the things I'm saying or the different versions that I, you know, we've talked about and they'll still feel– It still feels like, oh, I've done a workout if this is like hard, or if they want to go easy it can be easy, where it's like you can get– whatever you need from the 20 minutes or 5 minutes or whatever, you can get it and the time doesn't actually matter. Like it kind of depends on like, what are you doing it for? Like, do you have 5 minutes and that's all you have all day and you wanna relax? Your approach might be a little bit different than if you're like, well, when I'm really anxious, I'm really stressed out, to me something a little more intense personally helps me destress, it doesn’t mean it works for everybody. But you know, you do find it with 5 minutes or 20 minutes you can do whatever you need, whatever you need. It doesn't have to be this big thing. And yeah, just like this– hearing feedback from people who are kind of coming to this realization themselves in classes or wherever else, you're hearing them think like, oh whoa I can actually– It is about– not just because I've told them that it is, but also because they're experiencing it in their bodies, and what that like, what it starts to feel like.

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's a really empowering way to approach movement. And I think empowering is a word that tends to get really overused these days in– particularly in the yoga and wellness and fitness space. I also think there is something to be said for taking your power into your movement practice, and not letting outside influences say this is what it's supposed to be. Right?

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Yeah, for sure.

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I also think that it's a lot easier to start a habit of movement if you are starting small, and slow, then you know, if you are trying to accomplish something incredibly challenging every day, you know, if you're aiming for 60 minutes every day, good luck. But, you know.

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Yeah, honestly, who has that much time?

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Yeah, well and I think about it too, you know when– I mean, I also think this is actually what I was gonna say, is that I think that this is what makes online yoga so cool, is that you know you really can tailor these classes to however long you or I want them to be, you know I can say I'm gonna do a 5 minute practice, you know to give to people on my YouTube channel or whatever, and that can be like the moment in the day that somebody is able to do it. And I think that as soon as we start saying things like, “well, it's just 5 minutes,” or “that's not really doing much, is it?” You're starting to just make people feel bad about the lives that they live and the complications that might exist and all of those things and you're pushing people out of the space instead of welcoming in.

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For sure.

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And that just shouldn't be the goal. It shouldn't be the goal of movement, you know, at all.

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Yeah. No, it shouldn’t. One thing that I've- I think it was my therapist who told me this? I can't remember now, but– It was in a different context, but I use it in this context a lot because sometimes other people can say like, oh what's that going to do? But sometimes our brain will also say it, like we will think it in our heads, in diet culture’s voice or whatever. Just answering like, who says? Like kinda like, your inner sassy toddler voice, however you want to approach it like, who actually says? Who says? Nobody says. This you know, jerk on the internet might say, or whatever, but there's actually no rule. And you know, you can go into– depending on what helps motivate you, you can go into all the science, there's resources on my website. You can probably just Google it. Maintenance Phase is helpful, Aubrey Gordon books are so helpful. There's so much stuff out there to fuel that voice of “who says” because it's not just– like it's actually backed by science it's actually, there's stuff behind it. But I say it just in case it’s helpful for anybody that like, whether you say the same phrase or I'm sure you can get creative and have your own version of that, which is sort of like a– or, kind of a reminder not only to kind of remind yourself of your inner rebel, or your anti-diet self, but also that it's actually– that's probably not your thought like, you didn’t– you weren't born thinking these things, you were taught that from somewhere else and having a short practiced way of, kindly, like, you know, I'm not saying don't have your feelings, don't, you know, don't process them. But just sort of just as like a stop sign for all of the anti-diet– For the diet culture stuff that might come up and sometimes trigger a whole big wave of things, sometimes it can be helpful to have a little phrase like, “who says,” or “so what if it's 5 minutes,” or whatever, can be helpful, just a little tool for your– anyone’s back pocket or whatever.

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I love that.

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I really like it. I feel like I sometimes do a much better job explaining it, but because it's– I feel like trying to fit a lot of information into a small little tip, but it can be really helpful. Yeah. Can you share with folks where to find you if they want to find you, and anything else you want to plug?

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Yeah, absolutely. So currently I can be found at Conscious Healthy Mama pretty much everywhere. So my website is Conscious Healthy Mama. Instagram handle is @conscioushealthymama. And my YouTube is not. My YouTube is just my name, it's Naomi Gottlieb-Miller. And I also write a Substack called “What Moves You” and and I write about the intersection of– mostly the intersection of motherhood and movement, and yeah, and diet culture a little bit, and, you know, really just culture at large, the world that we live in, how it impacts us and what moves us about it. So, yeah.

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That's so cool. I love the work you do, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for being here, for sharing all of your lovely wisdom, and story, and everything, I really appreciate it and I know that everyone listening will too. Thank you.

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Thank you for having me. It was an absolute pleasure.

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Aw, that’s very sweet. Thank you, I’ll talk to you soon. 

Outro Captions

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I'm so interested to know how that went for you, how you liked that episode if you identified with Naomi's experience, if you– Actually, I would love to hear your own experience with healing from movement or healing from eating disorder, or disordered relationship to movement and food because I think it might be helpful to share. I'd like– I'd love to share an episode where just I'm reading out other people's stories. So if you are interested in sharing your story, send it to info@movewithbillie.com. And thank you so much for being here with the podcast. If you are a movement teacher and you are interested in starting your own website, that has to do with having online classes, being able to book clients, do newsletters, I strongly recommend checking out Offering Tree. I am not being paid to say this, however if you use the link in the show notes, you get a discount for trying out Offering Tree, and I get paid for you getting a discount. So it's a win-win, so check out the link in the show notes. If you are not interested, you know, you don't need a website, you're not a movement teacher, whatever, you can still support me by buying me a coffee, checking out my merch, and working with me one-on-one or in a group class. Or if you have two minutes right now, save this episode, share it with somebody, subscribe, and leave a review for Rebel Movement podcast, it makes a huge difference, helps me reach more people. Thank you so much for being here. Again, send any stories, any feedback to info@movewithbillie.com. Follow me on Instagram @movewithbillie. And I will see you next week. Bye!